Join us today with Amy from Humility and Doxology to chat all things Shakespeare including how to include him in your studies, recitation and memorization, and keeping it fun!
Lara:
Today we are chatting Shakespeare with our friend Amy from Humility and Doxology. She is another Charlotte Mason fan. I am going to let Amy introduce herself and then we'll jump into the fun!
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Amy:
Thank you, Lara, so much for having me today. I'm really excited to get to talk to you about one of our favorite topics. My name is Amy, and I'm a second generation homeschool mom of five. My oldest recently turned 15 and my youngest is five. I'm moving out of those little years, but really enjoying the older kids. I've two boys, five and 15 and three girls who are currently eight, 10, and almost 13. I was homeschooled all the way through high school graduation. My husband was home schooled up until high school, and I have always been inspired by Charlotte Mason and classical ideas. In fact, I can remember my mom giving people, Susan Schaeffer Macaulay's book For the Children's Sake. They were like, "How should we homeschool?" She'd be like, "Read this book." Yeah. That's our family.
Lara:
I would get along so well with your mom. That's always the first one I give people.
Amy:
I recently passed it to a neighbor myself a couple of weeks ago.
Lara:
I stopped doing that because I loaned it out once and didn't get it back. Now, I just buy people a copy.
Amy:
There you go.
Recommended Shakespeare Resources
Will's Words Shakespeare's Words
Tales from Shakespeare - Charles Lamb
Lara:
Why do you think that Shakespeare is important?
Amy:
Well, I have a long history with Shakespeare. I was able to actually take a Shakespeare course in high school and then took a college level course on Shakespeare and his contemporaries, which I think is basically just to help us see how much more superior Shakespeare was to everybody else.
I think that Shakespeare is so important because you have a few people like Chaucer, Tyndale's Bible translation into English, which was the precursor for the King James Version of the Bible. Then Shakespeare, you have these people who really founded the English language the way that we know it.
The English that we speak and read today, we would not have so much vocabulary and phrases and things that we don't even realize come from Shakespeare. Just as a cultural, historical figure, studying Shakespeare's words is valuable, but it's like with math, people are like, "Well, when would we use this?" I almost don't even want to say, "What's the use of Shakespeare?" Because it's just good fun. It's just beautiful.
Lara:
It is beautiful.
Amy:
Yes. Just the way he could use sound and rhythm and meter and emotion really deal with those issues of what makes us human. It's just beautiful. I think it's valuable because it's lovely.
Lara:
I love that you mentioned the rhythm. The Iambic pentameter, we call that heartbeat rhythm and we love using it here. My oldest son has some special needs and when he was younger, we actually would get him to calm down by pounding out an iambic pentameter with him while he would use his words to get all his frustration out. It was just so cathartic for him and that rhythm is a great way to just catch your attention. I think people miss that so much when they don't study Shakespeare and that, "Well, why do I need to know about the foot?"
Amy:
Right. Then, even how he would change things up and suddenly throw in prose and you'd stop for a minute. You'd be like, "Wait a minute. What's happening here?" It's all very purposeful, so you start paying attention to details and patterns of speech that you wouldn't necessarily otherwise notice.
Lara:
Yes. Do you have a favorite resource for teaching phrases from Shakespeare?
Amy:
We don't necessarily just focus on short phrases. We love to memorize longer portions ourselves.
Lara:
We do too. I think we've got one, is it Will's Words maybe? It just includes a bunch of the common phrases that we use in today's language that we never would've had without the bard.
Amy:
Yes. There's some really fun insult generators for your older teens too, a lot of them are infamous.
Lara:
Yes. A lot of them have something about being a cur. Those are fun. I used to have a mug that has several of those on it.
Amy:
Love it.
Lara:
How did your family start with Shakespeare in your homeschool? You've got kids on both ends now. Do you do it with your younger ones as well as your older ones?
Amy:
Yes. Shakespeare is part of our morning time, morning basket routine. Its something we do altogether and have been officially doing it, I don't know, at least five years now or so. Ever since my youngest guy was a baby and I guess while we started... Like I mentioned earlier, I've always loved Shakespeare and used to do reader's theater with college friends just for fun. It was something that was important to me that my children just grow up loving it without... Was stuffy.
We just started reading passages and memorizing it and having fun with it in our morning time. It was basically just that simple. We just started with one thing and then we added another and it's really become part of our family culture and those inside jokes, their movie quotes, but they're Shakespeare quotes.
Lara:
Right. It's very similar too. We have a lot of Jane Austen jokes because my poor boys have been raised on Jane Austen as well.
Amy:
I love it.
Lara:
What do you recommend for families if they want to make Shakespeare fun?
I know a lot of us, and I was one - I loved Shakespeare going into high school. I had a teacher nearly ruin me on Shakespeare forever. I know a lot of parents have come out of that high school experience and they're like, "Oh, please tell me I really don't need to do Shakespeare," but yes, you really do! It's so good for your kids and your family, but how do you recommend for especially parents with that kind of experience. How do they make it fun so that they enjoy it, like the kids enjoy it?
Amy:
Well, it's really funny because I was talking to my almost 13-year-old daughter downstairs before I came up to record this podcast with you. I said, "One of the questions she asked was how do you make Shakespeare fun?" "I don't know. Do I make it fun?" She said, "Why do you have to make it fun? It's just intrinsically fun." I was like, "Brainwashing has worked. Yes!"
I guess joking aside, I think that the reason why it's always just been naturally fun for my kids is, one, mom's enthusiasm. I think mom coming in with enthusiasm, even if you have to fake it a little until you make it, which was not my case, but it could might be yours. Your enthusiasm as a mom really has such a huge impact on the enthusiasm levels of your children. That would be one thing.
Second, we don't super analyze the words that we're reading or memorizing and reciting. We just enjoy them and enjoy the flow. Every once in a while, say we've read the same passage together a few times, I'll be like, "Oh, did you pick up on that little play on words here at all?" Like, we'll laugh at something we've discovered. I'm not sitting there like, "Now, let us analyze the rhythm and the rhyme. Did you notice this classical illusion?" It's very just natural. We're just enjoying something that's beautiful. Then, Shakespeare is not designed to be read, right?
Lara:
No. No, it's not.
Amy:
It's not a book. If you go tell your teenager to go sit and read Hamlet to themselves, no wonder they hate it. Don't do that to them. That's terrible.
Lara:
It really is.
Amy:
Right. Now, with younger children, it's hard to... You probably can't sit and watch a full Shakespeare production with them. A lot of the really wonderful films aren't necessarily age appropriate.
Lara:
No. Midsummer Night's Dream, the 90s version comes to mind.
Amy:
Yes. What I have done is I've gone on YouTube and I found clips of the speeches we've learned or the scenes and I've created a comparative playlist. We can go and see To Be or Not To Be recited by about a dozen different actors over the years. They get that enjoyment of seeing it actually acted out for them without me having to worry about, "Oh, what's going to come next?" Because I've pre-curated age appropriate film. I think that has made it really fun. We just stand up and get goofy about it, really get up in our living room and act it out enthusiastically.
Lara:
I think that's great. We did something similar with the videos when we did Hamlet. I did not know until we did that, that David Tennant from Doctor who had ever played Hamlet.
Amy:
Oh, I love his version of Hamlet. It's fantastic. Did you know Christopher Plummer, who played Captain von Trapp, I found a clip of him reciting it. Apparently, he played Hamlet one time and blew my mind.
Lara:
Okay. I have to look that one up. I haven't seen that one, but no. It's just amazing, all the different things that we can pull in, but I really want people to remember what you said, "You don't have to analyze it." I think that's what really probably ruins it for most people in traditional high school settings or even some college professors. I had one who wanted us to completely dissec Henry V, and that takes all the fun out of it.
Amy:
You're supposed to wave your sword around with Henry V!
Lara:
Exactly. You're right there. It's the perfect play for high school boys!
Amy:
Oh, totally. Definitely.
Lara:
Get them some pool noodle swords and let them have fun.
Amy:
Yes. That is one of our favorites.
Lara:
What are your tips for moms that have finally decided to dive in and they want to begin to Shakespeare with older children who haven't necessarily grown up with it?
Amy:
I think a good first step would be still to start with something like Charles and Mary Lambs retelling the tales from Shakespeare. The reason why I especially love Lambs Tales from Shakespeare is they incorporate so much of the original language into the retelling and the summary. As someone who's very... If you're very familiar with the original Shakespeare play, you'll all be reading it and realizing they've just taken entire phrases and paragraphs straight from Shakespeare, but it's written in a more natural like prose, maybe more easily accessible summary.
Lara:
Yes.
Amy:
Just to have an idea of what in the world is going on if you're new to Shakespeare, start with the summary, start with something that's really well written and well told. I think that's a good first step.
Then, like I said before, don't send them to the room to read it. Sit in the living room with them, read it out loud, do a reader's theater as a family. If you have other teens or friends that would even be willing to meet online, you can do reader's theater online. In fact, when I was homeschooled in high school, my Shakespeare class was an online class back in the day, early technology.
Lara:
Oh, wow.
Amy:
That was what we did. We did just reader's theater. We would take turns. We couldn't see each other's face, because it was back in the dark ages.
Lara:
Right.
Amy:
And we would read the plays together. I think that's so important to read it out loud, to feel the words in your mouth. Then, I guess another thing I would say not to do is don't give them one of the modern English translations. It could be really tempting to think, "Well, I want them to understand what they're reading, so I'll get them one of the bilingual Shakespeare books," and those have their place. They can be really helpful as a teacher, but the point of Shakespeare is not so much just to get the plot line and in fact, some of the things you may want to go over your kids' heads.
Lara:
Right.
Amy:
If you just read it in the original authentic Shakespeare words, they're going to get the beauty. They're going to get the most important parts. Then, maybe some of the risqué stuff is just going to go over their heads.
Lara:
We hope.
Amy:
Yes.
Lara:
Oh, my goodness. That's funny. Sometimes I use the No Fear Shakespeare versions to refresh myself. I really like the Folger site because they don't really give you that second translation though. They give you just a study note.
Amy:
Helpful.
Lara:
Yes. It's like if you don't quite get what this means, here's just a little note to help it makes sense. I think overall, the beauty in the language and the fun, because he really was, I think the first and I still think the best, but I'm biased, the best playwright and poet to really utilize language to its fullest potential.
Amy:
Yeah. Definitely. Along with that - hearing it, so we love to actually get the audio, like the dramatized audio versions. I guess Arckangel Productions, they have some.
Lara:
They're good.
Amy:
It's amazing. You're not even seeing actors on a stage, not watching a film, but these actors are so brilliant that they can communicate the words where it actually blows my mind. I was listening to Comedy of Errors in the car with... Again, my five kids, a wide range and all of them would laugh at the right moment. It's like, " Are you going to get every single detail of the nuance? No", but that's not our goal right now. Right?
We're just trying to grow that love or wanting to nurture the affections and that delight, so that later on, if they do want to analyze Shakespeare, Shakespeare's already something in their heart. They already love him. Once you love him, then if you want to study more, you're not going to destroy it.
Lara:
Or it could just be like my seven-year-old did to his brother the other week and literally bit his thumb at him. We just finished Romeo and Juliet.
Amy:
Wow. I love it.
Lara:
At least, it was... Nobody nowadays would get it.
Amy:
Right. I'm still laughing.
Lara:
I know. It was such an insult. He was really mad. I don't remember what about, but he was really mad.
What are your three favorite Shakespeare pieces for memorization?
Amy:
Okay. I was having so much trouble figuring out which three I was going to say because it is like your favorite children. If I had to pick just three, I would have to say, one is actually a Shakespeare Sonnet. If anyone watched the old Sense and Sensibility version, oh, that beautiful sonnet where "Let me not to the marriage of two minds, admit impediments" you have to memorize that one. I love that sonnet.
Lara:
Yes.
Amy:
One of the most meaningful things I memorized in my high school years was Portia's Speech from Merchant of Venice: The quality of mercy is not strained. It's a pretty long passage. I print them out and give them to my children so that we can all kind of just read them together. That's how we learn and do our recitations. It was like two pages. It's a pretty substantial chunk, but worth... You cannot cut a single line, just the beautiful reminders of justice and mercy and her ultimate message that if we were seeking justice, none of us would see salvation that we all pray for mercy. That same prayer, that teach us all to render the deeds of mercy. Love that one.
The Quality of Mercy Speech
The Quality of Mercy speech recording
Then, you mentioned Henry V. I was torn with this third one. I was like, "Well, St. Crispin's Day or Friends, Romans, countrymen? Which one am I going to say?" They're both with a history, Henry V and Julius Caesar, both just such dramatic pieces. If I had to pick between the two, I would say St. Crispin's Day for its self-sacrifice and the brotherhood, band of brothers and that view of heroism in the face of potential loss.
Lara:
Yes. Oh, it's so good. This is really funny. This is my notes and we have two of the same three here.
Amy:
Oh, I love it.
Lara:
Yes. The Sonnet 116 and I absolutely love Willoughby. I actually have a pocket version.
Amy:
Oh, my goodness.
Lara:
I know. My mom bought it in London in 1971. It's even in Roman numerals, which really stretches my brain.
Amy:
I love it.
Lara:
My third one was Puck's Epilogue, especially for the younger ones. I love that for recitation and memorization, but it's so easy to put hand motions with it when you've got little ones. I had mine memorize that when they were four and six and they still run around the house every now and again and will just burst forth into Shakespeare.
Amy:
I love it. Yeah. Midsummer Night's Dream seems to be really easy for even the younger ones to seem to grasp, which seems strange because it's such an odd plot. It's just so weird, but they love it.
Lara:
They are still so open to fairy tales.
Amy:
Yes. It's basically just a... It's a fairy tale of this fantastical magical story. Yeah. My little's especially have loved those passages.
Lara:
I actually know exactly when to pause mine, so I can skip. We've watched the movie, but it's only because I had the movie memorized and I knew where to pause it. Then, you go to the chapter selection.
Amy:
Oh, yes. You're going to have to write this down for me, so I can watch it with my kids.
Lara:
Yes. That 90s version one with Michelle Pfeiffer was brilliantly done, but you do have to skip sections. That always for whatever reason makes me think of when I took my kids to see the Hague exhibit at the High museum and there was this big, beautiful picture in there. It was one of the last days so of course, it was packed with all these 60 and up year old people. It was Venus. Well, if you've ever seen a picture of Venus, she's always in a state of undress and my sweet little six-year-old as loud as he could, says, "Mommy, that artist forgot to paint her clothes on!"
Lara:
Yes. You've now seen Venus and Girl with a Pearl Earring. Sometimes things like that just happen. It'll happen when they're reading the Shakespeare too. Yes, I always get tickled when people see the stage notes or your 10 and 11-year-olds start coming across some of those, they're like, "Now, wait a minute, does that mean what I think it means?" "I don't know. Just keep reading."
Which play do you actually recommend people begin their studies with? I know there's a lot of split on this and I know Charlotte Mason actually almost always began with Macbeth in her programs, which is really interesting to me, but she always did Macbeth and Coriolanus.
Amy:
Have you seen the film version of Coriolanus?
Lara:
I have not.
Amy:
Inappropriate. There's the caveat, but really well done. A really great film.
Lara:
I would caution not to watch the Macbeth with... Oh, heavens, Ian McKellen from the 70s. It's just very black box, weird, modern. Their accents and their readings are perfect. If you don't mind the weirdness...
Amy:
Maybe not for small children. No.
Lara:
No, not for small children. It's a little spooky. It might be good to watch if you're wanting a frightening movie. Of course, I guess Macbeth is a little that way anyway. She also paired Julius Caesar with the Plutarch life and then she would sometimes, but not as often, pair Coriolanus.
Amy:
Well, I think it's interesting to say, which one do you start with? It might be easier to say which ones not to start with like Titus Andronicus.
Lara:
All the way.
Amy:
Nobody needs to read that, but you can't really go wrong and you have many years, so you're not going to be able to pick the perfect play and the perfect order does not exist. Just do one thing and do it well and have a small victory and then move on to the next play.
I would say if a mom already has a play that she has some familiarity... When I was in high school, all my friends, we were obsessed with the Kenneth Branagh Much Ado about Nothing.
Lara:
Of course.
Amy:
I could practically recite the whole play from memory, at least his version of it. That was one that I was so excited to share with my kids and the different versions and interpretations with my the comparative Shakespeare clips that I did. We did that one fairly early on, but that was because it was something that I loved. It's not necessarily because it's the most important one you should start with. Julius Caesar is very accessible. Especially if you're studying that time period in history, the characters are relatable and the plot is very simple to understand compared to some of the more complex ones. Midsummer Night's Dream, I think I mentioned earlier. Little kids seem to just love that along with the older ones too, sort of the magic and the wonder and the just wackiness of that story. I don't know that you could really pick a bad play to start with.
Lara:
Other than Titus Andronicus.
Amy:
Yeah. Other than that one.
Lara:
I don't know. That was his first real tragedy, wasn't it? It seems like you could tell he was inexperienced when he wrote that one.
Amy:
Yeah.
Lara:
It's like a modern day blood and gore flick.
Amy:
Yeah. Just no, thank you.
I think that one thing that's really fun too, as you go through a lot of the plays is you start picking up on illusions in pop culture, even because you were mentioning Macbeth. If anyone has listened to any of Hamilton, there's a line in there. He says, "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. It creeps in this petty pace from day-to-day", I just butchered the line, but he says, "I won't name the play." Of course, you're like, "Oh, I had just memorized that with my kids." You start picking up and the kids were like, "Oh, we know that one." Even the tragedies are... I think you can do them in a way that's not scary for children. Just don't focus on the dark parts.
Lara:
Right. My kids really enjoyed Macbeth and I was a little surprised because I was a little older before I really got into it. Then again, anything with intrigue in it with children... My oldest is 10 and a half. Anything that has that mystery and intrigue and double dealing, he's always very into that.
It's the same reason he loves studying history, which I think Shakespeare did a really good job of focusing on the humanity in the history. He really brings forth the characteristics of people and the failings that are so common, especially once you get to know your rulers and your leaders and your people in power, and I think that is something... Because children haven't really been corrupted by culture yet, they still see all the truthfulness in it.
Amy:
Yeah. Also with his villains, I love Shakespeare's villains. Not because of their evil, but because of their humanity. He does such a good job. I don't know of a single one of his villains where there's not like a part of you that sees the complexity and sees like, "Oh, they had just made that one different decision." Or you see they're not just cardboard characters.
I think that's important for developing empathy, for understanding that we aren't just like cut and dry. It's not like the good guys and the bad guys. There's right and wrong. There's good and evil. When you're talking about history and real humans, we're very complicated. To be able to have compassion, even as you despise the villain and are glad when they lose, I love that about how Shakespeare crafts his characters.
Lara:
I do too. I always liked that in a lot of the stories, there's a redemption element. I love that in the Tempest at the end, all the servants come back and they're sorry. Then, it's a little like Aladdin, Prospero has his chance where he could have kept Ariel, but he does honor his word. It's really interesting to me how he sometimes chose to have that redemption element and other times really didn't. Other times, everybody just ends up dead at the end.
How to Love Shakespeare