Recommended Resources:
Seeing the Form (Glory of the Lord)
Vincent’s Starry Night and Other Stories: A Children’s History of Art
The Purpose of Beauty in a Charlotte Mason Education
To experience beauty is to experience a deep-seated yes to being, even in its finitude and its moments of tragedy, and such an affirmation is possible only if being is grounded, born by a reality that is absolute in value and meaning. In short, the experience of finite beauty and a spiritual being implies the unavoidable although perhaps from the medically unconscious co-affirmation of an infinite beauty, the reality that we call God. – Richard Viladesau, Theology and the Arts.
Lara:
Welcome, friends. Today, we are having a very fun chat with our friend Dallas Nachtigall from Bestowing the Brush about beauty as a vessel for truth. Dallas, will you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?
Dallas:
Hello, thank you much, Lara, for having me on. I am honored once again to talk to you. I am Dallas Nachtigall. I am owner of Bestowing the Brush. You’ve probably seen me on Instagram. I like to talk about art, about drawing specifically. I love that discipline, but I love to talk about theology and art as well. When Lara asked me to come on and talk about this topic, I said a hearty yes, because it is just right up my alley. I’m very thrilled to get to talk about this and get to just take this idea apart and put it back together again.
Lara:
I love that. We are both fans of Charlotte Mason. Charlotte Mason really rebelled against the common educational thoughts of her time, and greatly influenced by her fate, she developed what I consider to be a remarkable educational philosophy that is still admired by many people today. A major focus of her educational method includes beauty through art, music, great literature and even rhetoric. Today, we’re going to discuss how beauty is a vessel for Truth with a capital T.
In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we are told: “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.”
I love that. It’s just so big.
Dallas:
It is. That really speaks to God’s… His strength and he’s ever-present. He’s omnipotent. He’s everywhere at one time.
Lara:
Yes. He is. I think it shows too how much He loves us that He does make things beautiful. He brings beauty from the ashes, and he gives us all these little glimpses of just how much he delights in us by the things that he gives us in nature, the relationships that he gives us, the way that he gives us peace, even when the world may be crazy like it is right now. We’re going to dive in, and we’re going to talk first about what makes something beautiful. This is one of those things, I think, that people get caught up in.
“Well, what really is beauty? What is art? What makes art beautiful?” Especially in the Charlotte Mason tradition, it’s not just art, but it’s art. It’s music. It’s even math. We have order versus chaos or music versus noise. If you’ve got preschoolers, that could be intermingled. Then you’ve got art versus post-modernism. As an artist, what really stands out to you? What makes something aesthetically beautiful?
Dallas:
In my opinion, Lara, I think that beauty has an order to it. Beauty has a set of before-determined principles that make it beautiful, and God has written these into the world with what He’s created. We can look at the creation, and we can say it’s beautiful, first of all, because God made it, but second of all, that it follows His created order, its colors, and its proportions are very pleasing to our eyes. I believe that good art will mirror and reflect that which is created.
It may not be a total copying of the creation, but it’s directly modeled after creation. Whether that means that it’s a representation of a landscape or something in nature or taking the principle of something being very pleasing in thirds on a canvas, or that there is hierarchy, that there’s something larger, and that there’s something repeated somewhere, that there’s perspective going on. There’s light and dark. There are all these different themes that God has set into the world that make us really awe at His power and His design.
Lara:
There’s an awe that is missing in our current culture. People have become so self-centered. I don’t mean selfish, but they literally are focused on themselves, and so it makes it hard to look out and hard to look up and hard to look around when you’re looking in.
Dallas:
Absolutely.
Lara:
It’s important for us to appreciate the gifts that we’re given, to love the things that the Lord has given to us as blessings, obviously, not to the point like we’re putting them up on a pedestal, not like a druid loves a tree. It’s important, I think, for us to remember that we are supposed to be awed.
One of the things that our society has done, as we have gotten so busy, is that we have forgotten that part of worship is being in awe. It talks about fear and trembling, not necessarily because you’re afraid, but because you are just so awed by the power, by the grace, by the mercy.
I think part of looking at art is also admiring, worshiping, loving the Lord for who He is and what He is, and recognizing how much He loves us through the beauty that He gives us. I think it’s just something that we have lost a little bit as a culture. I feel like if we could go backward a little bit and appreciate art more like the people that were back there staring at the frescoes as Giotto was painting them, or watching Michelangelo paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I mean, can you imagine? That would be incredible.
We have these… Reflections, I think, is the perfect term for that. These reflections of creation that really reflect the awesomeness of our creator, and that’s amazing. That gets into our next point like, how it makes us respond. Do you think that how a particular piece of art or music or literature causes us to respond, does that tell us whether or not it’s really something that’s beautiful?
Dallas:
I think it can, but I think it also matters how you’ve cultivated in your students, drawing their attention to beauty and truth in all areas of life. I often find that it really can reflect the character of the person who is looking at the art and what they’re interested in and what their motivations are to hear them talk about the art, because someone can get something completely different out of the piece of art than someone else. I always think of that scripture to the clean, all things are clean, the idea that to the pure, all things are clean.
Even as we’re raising our children and teaching them, we can have a magnanimous outlook on people and on life, and we can have an optimistic outlook on life that is life-giving, and that we are drawn to the light so we automatically see the light, and we see worthy and good ideas coming from art that maybe someone else is blind to. I also think that there is an aspect of art, and it’s so weird to talk about it because it really is something that’s spiritually conveyed somehow.
Lara:
Yes.
Dallas:
That’s the weird thing about art is that you’re sharing in this common expression that the artist has made, so you’re like almost in the room with them, getting to know them a little bit and hearing from them. I believe that there is art that is really not worthy of our time, and there is art that is worthy of our time. I like something that Ruskin says here. He says this in The Laws of Fesole.
He says, “The art of man is the expression of his rational and disciplined delight in the forms and laws of the creation of which he forms a part.”
I really liked that because it is a rational, disciplined delight that this artist has, and he is expressing that, and he’s a part of the creation. Not only is he looking at the creation, he is also a part of the creation. It’s almost like he has this responsibility to show beauty and to show his disciplined delight in the creation that God has given to us.
Lara:
I love that so much. I think that’s absolutely perfect. For us, for our family, a lot of times if we’re looking at different artworks, or if I’m previewing things to show the boys, I feel like one of my go-to filters is, “Is it raising our minds to things above, or is it pulling us towards worldly things”, which is very much with Philippians 4:8. There’s another John Ruskin quote that I really like that applies to that, but it says “fine art is that in which the hand, the head and the heart of man go together.” That says it right there.
Lara:
If you’re looking at a piece of artwork, trying to decide if it’s something that’s right for your family to view, or if it’s something you want hanging on your walls, or if it’s a piece of music, you want your children listening to the lyrics of, and music is a big thing in our family. I was shocked when I finally hit the age where I realized what a lot of the lyrics in the songs I grew up with said. It’s all these things that we don’t really think about, they leave these impressions, because I guarantee you, some of the top 40 songs when we were in middle school, in high school, we probably remember the words too better than we remember some sections of scripture.
Dallas:
For sure.
Lara:
It’s important to be aware of that, and so we try to go through everything and make sure that it is aligning the heart and the head with things that are above. That’s how we filter.
A funny story about that though is we went to see The Hague exhibit when it was at the High in Atlanta a few years ago. At the time, my oldest was only six. He walks in, and the hog exhibit had all of the armor and the gold coaches, and it had some beautiful, incredible works of art by the masters, like that world famous portrait of- I think it’s Jane Seymour.
I can’t remember the artist’s name who did it right now, but it was just all these different beautiful pieces, but we walk in, and there is this massive piece of art that’s depicting Diana and some little cherubs. Diana is always in a state of undress. It’s just how art goes. My sweet little six-year-old right there in the middle of this huge art exhibit that was totally packed goes, “Mommy, they forgot to put her clothes on!” That was a cute funny, but I do try to be a little bit more careful now when we’re going into things like that to prepare them a little bit better.
I think there’s a very big difference between seeing a piece of artwork like that or seeing Michelangelo’s David sculpture versus some of the more gratuitous things that we see now in what is considered post modern art.
Dallas:
As you were talking, it made me think about the filter… Another litmus test that I use is I think there’s a distinction between art that depicts something maybe ugly or grotesque, but the way that it is done, it is not glorifying that thing. Then there is art that is glorifying the grotesque and the ugly. I think if you just maybe stop to think about something before you’re going to show it to your kids, think about the immediate reaction that you have to that piece of art.
Does it make you uncomfortable?
Just check yourself a little bit there because it could be that that image of a flesh wound or something displaced is meant to make you think and draw you in, but it also can be used in a way that really glorifies ugliness. Because I went to school with artists that were doing this very thing, maybe I have better radar on that. I don’t know, but I guess just ask yourself questions as you’re looking at the art.
What is it making you initially feel, or are your preconceptions of that thing wrong initially?
Maybe this is supposed to point you to a deeper truth that you didn’t realize at first glance. Does that make sense?
Lara:
Yes. I totally understand. For me, one of the things that I see that really has always made me uncomfortable is all the different variations of the Bacchus rights you see in Renaissance art. I feel like there’s an underlying darkness to some of those pictures. Some of them really look more like Victorian revelries, but some of them really have that underlying just darkness. I think there’s a lot of that in more post-modern art. We went to see a Basquiat exhibit, and wow.
I mean, that wasn’t even… There wasn’t anything graphic or gratuitous in that art show. There was just… You could feel how conflicted and how wounded and how dark his perspective was just by looking at his art. That’s not one I recommend taking kids to. I think sometimes we do get challenged by the art to think about something deeper. As parents, we are the gatekeepers of our home, and so we know our children best. I think that ultimately falls on us what we’re exposing them to, because we know what our kids can handle and what they can’t.
I think we have to listen to that. Sometimes there’s little nudgings that are saying, “Whether or not this is scheduled for year four, your kid’s not ready for it.” That’s coming from the Holy Spirit. I really think we have to remember that a lot of those little nudges that make us uncomfortable sometimes too are the Holy Spirit’s way of saying, “Don’t do that.”
Dallas:
Which is totally a case by case basis.
Lara:
Absolutely.
Let’s move on to art as an idea. Charlotte Mason was very big on presenting children with living ideas. I think the medium of the arts is really just a phenomenal way to do that. Charlotte Mason says that, “Thought breeds thought. Children familiar with great thoughts take as naturally to thinking for themselves as the well nourished body takes to growing, and we must bear in mind that growth, physical, intellectual, moral, spiritual is the sole end of education.”
That pretty well sums up her philosophy in a way that she was very big on giving the children ideas and letting the Holy Spirit then do the work of helping them mold through it and process it and come to their own conclusions from that.
Dallas:
I think that’s why narration is so important in general, because if you’re cultivating that skill in your children throughout their education, when they see something that really affects them, they’ll talk about it. That can really open up the floor for wrestling through an idea that’s maybe a little harder, or like I said before, if they aren’t exposed to something that maybe you wouldn’t have wanted them to be that just by contrast, I guess, asking them like, “Is that the art that we usually look at in our home, or are those the books that we like to get at the library? What is different about that, and how does it make you feel?”
I think that’s a really good way to tease out those thoughts that they’re having, just opening up the floor for a conversation after you’ve been to the museum. I don’t know if your guys’ children are like this, but sometimes it takes my oldest one a week before he’ll even talk about something. He’s just thinking about other things, so just being open to those conversations and not being intimidated, because we know that truth is truth, and the Holy Spirit obviously is doing some work in them. The Lord, obviously, let this happen, so I think taking that opportunity is good too.
Lara:
Yes, definitely. I feel like Charlotte Mason was very big on the Holy Spirit being the importer of all wisdom. I feel like that is something that we tend to forget sometimes. As mothers, we want to be in control. We want to be the tour guide for our kids. We want to be taking them exactly where they need to be going, and that’s actually not our job. I think it’s really important sometimes that we are reminded of that, and I think the conversations that spring a lot of times from certain pieces of art or from things that happen in plays.
We are officially doing “real Shakespeare” now for my oldest. My youngest is not quite there yet. We’ve been doing Henry V. There have been so many amazing conversations about that, and then we finally got the Kenneth Branagh Henry V movie version, which I highly recommend. There’s a little bit of blood and gore in it, but there’s nothing super off. Some of Shakespeare’s plays are a little more risque. This is not one of them. We’ve had so many great conversations, and actually seeing it, of course, is always so much more impactful, I think, when it comes to Shakespeare than the reading of it.
Spoiler alert here, but when one of Henry’s friends from his days as a prince, he hangs for robbing a church, because he had instructed his men not to do that. We’re talking about the Middle Ages here. People had very direct punishment, and there was very little mercy. You can see the effect that it has on him in the movie versus when you’re reading what’s going on and having to put the pieces together. It really made the connection a little bit better for him.
The conversations that came from that, “Well, mommy, why did he do that if they were friends?” “How does that play into that? If you are a leader, do you have to be that just all the time?” If you do this to this person, that means you have to do it to this person if you’re going to be fair. I mean, there’s just all these great conversations that came from a single scene, and it has played out over and over again. I would say in the four weeks since we watched the film, we’ve had probably 15 different conversations over different parts of that.
Dallas:
Wow.
Lara:
It’s amazing. Sometimes, a little thing that I maybe didn’t even really pay attention to, he’ll ask me just randomly, “Mom, why did this happen?” Wow. Of course, some of them too are not quite so deep. They’re like, “Mom, why did he marry his cousin.” Because that’s what the royal families did to keep everybody together, but there’s this ability with art to really touch the strings of our children’s souls. I think that’s just such a big… responsibility, but it’s a gift.
If we steward the time that we have with them well, I think we are able to use art as a way to help them learn how to recognize promptings from the Holy Spirit, to help them learn how to have more empathy, to help them learn how to take examples from other people because we all can’t make all the mistakes and learn to do better from something somebody else did, whether it was a painting or the story of an artist’s life or a piece of music from someone who started out glorifying God with their work, but then fell away from the faith.
You can tell the difference between what they started with and what they ended with, or the reverse. It’s just this amazing vessel for helping our children really make truth a part of themselves, and to use that as their lens to view the world.
Dallas:
I think that’s really good. It also makes me think about how important downtime is to have these deep thoughts. When you’re constantly on the move, and you got to get on to the next thing, you don’t really have time to think about these really chewy ideas.
Lara:
Yes, that’s the whole point of masterly inactivity.
Dallas:
Yes.
Lara:
That actually brings us to our next point, when we are guiding our children to enjoy beauty. This goes back to what you said a few minutes ago. This is another quote from Theology and the Arts.
“For the Christian message is not merely that God is lovely, but that God is love, not merely that God is beautiful and is to be found in the pursuit of what is attractive and desirable in the world, but that God is transcendently an absolutely beautiful and is to be found even in what to the world’s eye is ugly and deformed and unworthy.”
Dallas:
Yes, that contrast.
Lara:
It’s that contrast. For some reason… I don’t know if it’s just because we’ve been working on French a little bit, but that really brings to mind Quasimodo, The Hunchback of Notre-Dame. Well, even in the Disney version, which… I like the real versions of things, but even in the Disney version, you see the gentleness of character even in the mistakes. I think it’s a reflection of the Lord looking at our hearts and not our outward appearances. It’s like King David. The Bible doesn’t really describe him as an attractive man, whereas his brothers apparently looked the part. King Saul looked the part of king.
Here’s David, this man after God’s own heart, that’s described as rather ruddy. That’s something that’s just really stuck with me as we’ve progressed through education and myself learning how to more appreciate art and filter art. It’s been a really interesting progression for me to chew through that idea.
Dallas:
Just even the reminder of sin in the world, it’s a really good launching off point to talk about sin and how we live in a broken world. Things are not consummated fully yet, so I’m not sure if I’ve expressed this recently to my kids, but I’ve been thinking about it myself is like, “How much more beautiful is heaven going to be? How much more beautiful is the consummation of all redemption going to be?” When we look upon it, we are not even going to believe what God has done, and so all the beauty that we see here is even just a shadow.
I mean, how amazing is that?
Lara:
I know. It gives me chills. We were talking about that just a day or two ago. I had a candle lit, and my son was asking me, “Mommy, why do you like candles so much?” I’m like, “I’m drawn to the light. Thankfully not like a moth, but I am drawn to them.” We had this whole conversation about how in the beginning, God made light before He made the sun and the moon and the stars. Let there be light. There was light. If you’re just reading through it really quickly, you’ll miss the fact that that came first. But I said, “It’s really amazing because when we read about the coming Kingdom, there’s not going to be night. There’s not going to be stars. Literally, the light is coming from God.”
I mean, it’s just amazing when you think of that. I think it’s really lovely. In a world that, I think, so often tries to pull us in to the anxiety and the fear and the darkness, we have these things that are lovely that we can present to our children and give them an anchor to hold on to when they’re the ones out there really seeing and feeling and experiencing the world the way that it is. That is our hope. We know what we have to look forward to, and that gives us the ability to look at art or listen to music and to feel that spiritual element of it.
Dallas:
Absolutely.
Lara:
You are also very gifted at teaching art. One of the things that we want to progress from with our students is moving from them just appreciating art to actually creating their own art. You had a wonderful quote from Ruskin, if you would like to share that about them creating their own art.
Dallas:
Sure. Something Ruskin says here is he says,
“Fix, then, this in your mind as the guiding principle of all right, practical labor, and source of all healthful life energy, that your art be to the praise of something that you love. It may only be the praise of a shell or of a stone. It may be the praise of a hero. It may be the praise of God. Your rank as a living creature is determined by the height and breadth of your love, but be you small or great, what healthy art is possible to you must be the expression of your true delight in a real thing, better than the art.”
Dallas:
I really just love these words from Ruskin, because it’s like he’s always after what is behind the motivation of the making of a piece of art. It’s not like, “Oh wow, you made a beautiful rendering.” It’s not about that. For him, art is about your actual expression of the true delight that you have in the thing. Obviously, ultimately, we delight, and it should be our ultimate goal to delight in God, but He has made a creation for us. He has made us to enjoy these things while we’re here. He has made things so beautiful for us.
If we have the right mindset thinking about how beautiful this thing is, and really getting lost in that to a point, and then the rendering and the art making is an afterthought to that first initial idea, if that makes sense.
Lara:
Yes. I love too that he says what healthy art is possible to you, because I think there’s a lot of unhealthy art out there. I love van Gogh. I love his work. There’s a softness to it, but there’s also some aspects to it where you can tell he was not healthy, and he was not healthy doing his art. I think we have to be careful that our children focus more on what they’re delighting in than the final product, because we’re not all going to be Michelangelo.
That would be nice, but we’re not. I think that process of delighting in what they’re creating, delighting in the creation that they are mimicking on paper, or that they are playing on the piano, or that they’re singing, I think it’s just so important for them to really be proud of the process, be proud of what they’re working toward.
They’re exercising excellence, so it’s not the product that’s really the reward. It’s knowing that they did their very best. I think that’s a big thing with art.
We’ve all been trained to tell them, “Oh, that’s a beautiful picture,” when what we should be saying is, “I really love how you paid attention to that detail on that flower.”
We need to praise them for their effort, not their product. I think that’s something I’ve really had to work to unlearn. It’s really important to note that we were created by a creative God, and we’re made in His image, the imago Dei. We are made in the image of Him, and He created us and this amazing world, so we are naturally creative beings.
Another thing that Charlotte Mason said is that,
“Just like a lot of other things in children, we must have faith that art is there, or else we’ll never find it. It’s like a delicate Ariel that we can set free from bondage, so we set a twig or flower in front of a child and let him deal with it in his own way. He’ll figure out how to get the form and color he wants. Our help should be limited to technical matters, like showing him how to mix colors. We don’t want to interfere with the child’s freedom or inhibit the expression of the art that’s inside him, so we need to be careful not to offer crutches like guiding lines and points. Also, we should make sure children have the easiest medium to work with, paint brushes or charcoal, not black lead pencils. Avoid cheap boxes of paint. Children are worth the best we can offer.”
I could have cut that quote shorter, but I really wanted that last sentence in there.
Dallas:
This is one of my favorites from her, it really is. I love that she just has so much faith in them and that they are intelligent. They are their own person, that we can give them the materials. We can give them the leading ideas, and they’re going to do with it what they want to do. I think at the end of the day, if we remember that, we’re good to go, but sometimes, I think moms can be a little bit like… Well, specifically with Charlotte Mason, there are so many things that we need to go over in a day. There are so many subjects.
There is…I mean, if you let it, school could take up your whole entire day if you wanted it to. It’s debatable whether or not it’s a life skill or a school skill. They’re interchangeable. With art, it’s not always necessarily so linear. We want other subjects to be with math. You have to have a certain foundation, and then you build and then you build and you build on that. With art, it’s a little bit more like gauging the child’s skill and understanding a little bit more, and just letting them alone sometimes too, not talking so much, which is always a temptation.
If you’d let me, I’d love to read a little bit of the Fesole Club Papers by Collingwood. He talks about this in his paper called Landscape Figures. The paper is called The Life School. He’s talking about,
“Okay, we’re in the third year of this club. We’ve been learning how to draw and paint, and what are we going to draw now that we’ve learned?” He says, “Pictures of course. Ah, but the people whose work pictures are to be worth anything, they begin early and work late every day and all day, year after year striving, struggling, laying down their lives for their labor, and are heaven-born artists to begin with.”
“For such, the best advice is go to one of the great schools, and take up the profession in a businesslike way. The Fesole Club was only a little quiet corner, into which a few old-fashioned folk had withdrawn with some young people whose country lives kept them out of the busy world of the studios. In this our Arden, exempt from public ambitions and modern aims, we found sermons in stones, unashamed, and asked not to be famous painters but only reverend lovers of art and humble followers of nature.”
“Not to make pictures, nor yet to amuse ourselves idly and irresponsibly, but to use our drawing as a means of education. That is what I think all should desire and may expect.”
Lara:
Oh, that’s lovely.
Dallas:
I love his, “This isn’t for you. If you want to make your life’s work and struggle and compete,” I get this competitive vibe from what he’s saying. We’re talking about the golden age of watercolor here, England-
Lara:
The Lake District.
Dallas:
… the Lake District, it’s an artist community, but you’ve also got the French artists, and they have their pupils, their students. They work long hours. They shadow them. They have them going through this whole routine of your teaching, and the point of it is really to be the best and to get your art into the National Gallery. He’s combating that with like, “No, this is the life school. You enjoy the thing. You love the thing you’re painting. You are to become a reverent lover of art, and a humble follower of nature.”
Lara:
I love that too, that sermons in stone.
Dallas:
Yes.
Lara:
How many times do we walk out in the woods, and it’s just the balm that our souls need? That’s perfect. It’s true for adults too, though. I think we do need to put in a little reminder here just for the moms that the creating is not just for the children. Charlotte Mason said, “Let the mothers go out and play.” She wasn’t really talking about girls nights out. She actually used the example going to a museum. I know we don’t all have that right at our fingertips, but I think one of the things that we can do is sit down and create with our children.
Sometimes it’s just good to ignore the pile of dishes in the sink, and to sit there and to practice observing with them. I think what a lot of us have found as we have veered more in that direction is that while we’re observing the nature with them, we learn to better observe our children. I think that’s one of the things that we really have to pay attention to is that sometimes we get so focused in educating and providing the ideal education that we forget that it’s a relationship that comes first, and so we need to be willing participants in the education of our children, and not just administrators.
John Ruskin has another quote here.
“One of the major obstacles impeding any positive future change in our lives is that we are too busy with our current work or activity. Levi quit his tax-work. Peter stopped fishing at the lake. Paul ceased being a priest. They all left their jobs because they thought it was necessary.”
I think for us to make that connection with our children, it’s really important that we do stop our current work to be present with them sometimes.
I think the appreciation of art and the creation of art, the listening to music, the reading great literature, we can do these things together, and that relationship that we’re building with our children is really… It builds an eternal impact. It’s not just something that we’re doing right now, but we are building an eternal impact, and affecting our children towards the kingdom of God instead of towards the world.
Dallas:
Yes. I think that’s so good, just remembering that we’re not created for only what we’re having to do in this moment. You’re created to worship at the end of it.
Lara:
I think that’s why the Lord blessed us with people who were able to create amazing works of art. I think we can tell through our discernment muscles. Even when it’s someone who is not necessarily a believer, a lot of times, you can still pick up on the fact that they are someone created in God’s image because their level of creativity and their abilities are just God-given. I think it’s really important too that we not always throw the baby out with the bathwater, that just because something is secular, we don’t allow it in our homes at all.
I mean, a lot of the great classical pieces that most of us do enjoy were actually written as secular music. Again, it goes back to the Holy Spirit and following the promptings, and filtering everything through scripture, but I think the gift that we have been given through the arts in general is an excellent way for us all to draw closer to the Lord.
Dallas:
It’s that great recognition like she talks about in volume two.
Lara:
Yes, which everybody should read.
Dallas:
Yes.
Lara:
Everybody wants to shortcut, but after you’ve read For the Children’s Sake, I feel like everybody should read the actual volumes.
Dallas:
Yes. They will enrich you like you don’t even understand.
Lara:
Yes.
Dallas:
Get together with a group of ladies where you can talk about it and bounce ideas off of each other. That’s been so, so good in our lives.
Lara:
Thank you so much for joining us today and for this wonderful conversation. I love talking theology and beauty. I am just so tickled that you were able to come on here and chat with me.
Dallas:
Oh, thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed it. Anytime I can be encouraged by another mom is a good time, so thank you so much, Lara, for having me on.
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